[Edwardo]

I meant I doubt cariwinds would do the restaurant and convention center attached. The hotel they could easily do, it's not so large that it couldn't fit where I suggested.

[tarheel1231]

If you don't mind me asking, why not? I clearly don't have the expertise to open/run a hotel, but it seems like having amenities like a restaurant would make it stand out in an area flooded with budget hotels. Proximity to the park is obviously a factor, but what's going to stop people from staying farther away to save money?

[arby]

As FamousAmos said, yes, the campground seems to get plenty of business. Even when I stayed there in December a couple of years ago, I was surprised at the number of RVs there that time of year. It doesn't help that the KOA at the next exit has gone downhill significantly in the past few years so it is easily the best campground in the Charlotte area.

I'm going to go back and look at that picture of the road. I didn't see any clearing near the campground that hasn't always been there.

[Edwardo]

Have you been to Sandusky? Buena Park?

Two of CP's hotels aren't even close to the park, and yet because of the draw to that area, it's obvious there are more rooms needed or they wouldn't be expanding their lodging offerings. It's not about price, people that want to stay at the park's property will do that, and obviously the company had information suggesting that building more rooms in the area is a good idea or they wouldn't be planning a potential hotel.

Same for Knotts, it's surrounded by hotel/motels, so it's not about staying further away because of price.

As for why they very likely won't add a convention center? Carowinds isn't located in the second largest urban area in the country like Knotts is, so a large convention center doesn't make sense at this point. Charlotte just isn't that big and it wouldn't make sense.

As for restaurant, they could, but again there's a difference in Knotts, which is smack dab in urban development, surrounded by residential and business areas, CP which is operating beachfront resorts on a peninsula, and Carowinds. Plus restaurants are very hard businesses to make successful and the locale and dynamics at Carowinds are just totally different.

Something like (Breakers) Express or the former Geauga Lake Hotel would make sense where all the extras at Knotts or Breakers or Castaway Bay wouldn't.

[arby]

I found it in the Higgenbotham thread. Once again, courtesy of Coaster Nerds. I did circle what I think might be mentioned about clearing near the campground. Is that what people are mentioning? The other clearing through the woods is most certainly a road.

new_road_coaster_nerds_edit.jpg (583.48KiB)Viewed 4931 times

You will note the circled area has been there as a 'dump' for Carowinds for years.

Carowinds2016_edit.jpg (479.83KiB)Viewed 4931 times

I am just trying to find out where people saw clearing near the campground other than what appears to be a rerouting of Catawba Trace.

[tarheel1231]

I thought the circled area was clearing....

[arby]

Good, so I didn't miss anything in that picture. I've been studying it trying to find a new clearing that I hadn't seen before.

If you zoom in on that area, you can see it appears they keep piles of dirt, sand, gravel, mulch, etc...

CarowindsClearing.JPG (529.46KiB)Viewed 4926 times

[kirkgun]

I think a resort, or even just a nice hotel, would be a complete failure. And the cost of that failure would likely result in a massive slowdown of "in-park" development (if not a complete stoppage) for numerous years. And possibly significantly higher prices at the park to compensate for the financial failure of the hotel/resort.

Carowinds has improved dramatically, but it is still a 1 day park (or maybe 2 days so the kids can spend a full day at the water park now). It's also a nice park for locals to go spend an evening or afternoon once a week during the summer, like me. There's nothing else in the immediate area of Carowinds, so we never hang out near there, we go home. It's a boring and ugly industrial neighborhood. The Carowinds neighborhood is basically a warehouse/truck stop area. It's a place for a a couple budget hotels, nothing more. And those budget hotels are already there.

Who is going to stay at the Carowinds Hotel in November? Who is going to stay there in March? Who is going to stay there in the months between?

And truthfully, I think the place would be mostly empty in July also. Why? Because if I was planning a family vacation, I'd want to go someplace fun (which Carowinds is) but I also want to someplace beautiful and relaxing, with a large array of recreational activities. The Carowinds area is neither beautiful nor relaxing... and there's nothing else there besides Carowinds. Nothing.

If Carowinds was on a great beach on the coast? I think a resort would make sense. If Carowinds were sitting on a lake right outside of the Great Smoky Mountain National Park? I think a nice hotel would likely make sense. If Carowinds were near a number of other popular amusement parks, each with unique things to offer, and people wanted to spend a vacation going to all of them? I think a nice hotel would make perfect sense.

Carowinds is in a grimy industrial zone with nothing else to offer vacationers.

If (for some crazy reason) I decided to bring my family to vacation to the Charlotte area, where would I book our room? I'd book it uptown. There's museums. There's professional sports. There's good food. There's live music. There's art. There's Imax movies. There's bars. There's public transportation. There's things for kids and adults of all ages to do (rain or shine, summer or winter). And it's a pretty area. There's fountains and sculpture and architecture. And there's quiet green areas. It's a nice area you can walk around enjoying yourself, just simply walking around. And there's already large convention centers for events.

I'd spend 1 day of that vacation (2 days if young kids/water park) at Carowinds. And then I'd leave the Carowinds neighborhood and immediately head back to Uptown Charlotte after exiting the park, and for the rest of my time in Charlotte.

Even if Carowinds had:
1. A dive coaster
2. A wing coaster
3. a couple of launch coasters
4. a couple more wood coasters
5. a whole bunch of more flats, dark rides, and smaller attractions
6. a log flume
7. a golf course
8. tennis courts
9. etc etc etc

Would I then bring my family to spend a week at the truck stop where Carowinds is located? No. I'd still go to Cedar Pointe. Why? The beach, the scenery, the air, the relaxation... all the things that make that area a smart place to build a true resort that the Carowinds area does not have, and will never have. The Carowinds area is never going to lose it's industrial truck stop atmosphere. And they can't move the whole park to a true vacation area .

Budget hotels + the campground and fast food completely fill the need of the few coaster enthusiasts who make a road trip to get their Fury credit (and spend 1 night in the area). If Carowinds keeps improving like they are, then Carowinds can expect to keep seeing the attendance rise, mostly from locals. More enthusiasts will be making longer drives also (and then move on to Dollywood or King's Dominion the next day). And they'll keep having increasing season pass sales. This should be the objective for Carowinds: reasonable growth. Trying to make a resort area out of truck stop/industrial area would be a costly mistake.

Because families on vacation are going to still go to Orlando instead. A hotel in the parking lot of Carowinds is not going compete... at all. People aren't going to want to stay there for a week or two.

Hotels need relatively steady occupancy rates in order to staff properly (and pay those employees). Staffing a hotel/resort with a significantly fluctuating occupancy rate is a nightmare, and a recipe for very very unhappy guests (read the reviews of the hotels that are near Carowinds currently). Trying to make a nice hotel, where guests only stay for a single night, is a total fail. There are hotels on freaking Maui that struggle to keep occupancy rates steadily high ( Carowinds parking lot? ). Nobody flies to Maui to just stay for 2 days and 1 night (the airfare is way too high for short trips like that).

Who's going on a family vacation to Carowinds when they can go to Cedar Point? Who's going to Carowinds when they can go to Orlando? Who's going to Carowinds when the can go to the coast? Who's going to Carowinds when they can go to to the mountains?

And who's going to stay in the industrial neighborhood of Carowinds, when they can stay in Uptown Charlotte (an easy 15 minute drive from Carowinds)?

And this is exactly the huge benefit that Carowinds has over many other parks. It's so close to uptown Charlotte, it doesn't need to build hotels. It doesn't need to build good restaurants. It doesn't need to arrange evening and late night entertainment, or build those venues. It doesn't need to be a full resort. It can solely focus on building the best amusement park rides in the region. Carowinds can leave the building and capital expenditures of hospitality to other companies and investors. They only need to build rides and attractions (and fry up some funnel cakes). And focus on the in-park experience like a laser beam.

Do I think Carowinds might want to add some sports facilities, or other forms of entertainment to do around the periphery of the park? Sure.

But I don't think building nice hotel/resort would be a good idea... I think would almost certainly degrade the quality of what happens within the park as a result of this terrible business idea.

But I would say, that IF (and only if) the budget hotels near the park are regularly at maximum capacity, then maybe Carowinds could partner with a budget hotel chain and build another small budget hotel near Cabela's or something. I get the feeling that the hotels already in the neighborhood are not doing very good business already, from the feedback I've heard.

[RollerBee]

^Very well thought out and put!

[Edwardo]

You're thinking like a local and an enthusiast.

Obviously the company has done their research and continues to discuss adding a hotel of some sort.

There are other smaller and similar sized parks that have and have had hotels, like Great Escape, Geauga Lake (which successfully supported a hotel in an out of the way area way before Six Flags purchased them) and others.

I tend to trust a company who's stock keeps rising, profits keep rising, and who have more research and information than anybody here has.

Last year everyone was arguing that CF was going to add 400' coasters and tons of stuff based on the fact that the company said they intended to turn Carowinds into the CP of the south.

This year people are saying it can't support this, it can't support that.

Y'all flip flop more than politicians.

And if Carowinds adds a large sports complex with the intention of bringing people in from the region for sports competitions, those people need some place to stay. And a hotel doesn't need to be at capacity 365 days a year to be profitable. That's not how they work.

[MarkD]

kirkgun I hear what you're saying and good comments / arguments for sure.

While I agree that both sides of the exit for Carowinds needs some major revamping we aren't after all Orlando. Look at the exit for Kings Dominion, Right across the street from the entrance is a truck stop, a run down convenient store and some food. Not what I'd call vacation worthy but, if I am on a trek to visit several parks a motel sure would be nice after a full day in the park.

I think the term Resort and Motel gets fuzzy, for me especially. I think some where between those 2 is where Cedar Fair would find success. You need a place for Families to stay with a few perks like a food court, pool, comfy rooms, early access to the park, etc.

On the sports complex side, just between soccer and softball around here there is a tremendous showing for both. So, in order to possibly have tourneys and such having an onsite Motel / Resort would do very well here.

[kirkgun]

Edwardo,

I did not say that a hotel needs to be at max capacity 365 in order to succeed.

I said,

"Hotels need relatively steady occupancy rates in order to staff properly (and pay those employees). Staffing a hotel/resort with a significantly fluctuating occupancy rate is a nightmare, and a recipe for very very unhappy guests ..."

It's like you read something else entirely. And I also said I could see a possibility of them building a hotel (a modest budget hotel) if the business environment was actually ripe for it.

I fully expect that Cedar Fair will always and forever be investigating ideas to make more money on their properties... including hotels. That's their job. It's also their job to analyze reasons that some of the ideas may not be successful ones. Just because there is an idea, and it is being discussed, that does not mean it was a good idea. That's the point of the discussions, to determine if it is a good idea or not. In order to do that, reasons for failure must be discussed as much as reasons for success. And then those reasons need to be reconciled. I guarantee that many of those reasons that I suggested that a hotel at Carowinds might not be a good move (and maybe a bad move) have been brought up in those discussions (which have yet to yield any hint they are going forward with building a hotel).

Carowinds is not on an isolated peninsula, a significant distance from homes the people who go through the gate everyday, like some of their other properties, and competitors. Carowinds is not the type of park that is generally drawing people from long distances away. It could be someday. It is not now. And it would take a lot more expansion to make it that kind of destination. And it has a lot of entrenched and wildly successful competition it must fight uphill against, even with other properties within the Cedar Fair chain.

Maybe we should hope that the Cedar Fair folks make very different decisions than were made at Geauga over the years.

And MarkD,

I agree with what you say. I would counter that there are lots of great rooms and food (and many other activites) just 15 minutes away. A very easy distance for people to get to and from the park. Carowinds has the ability to leverage other people's businesses, competing might not always be the best move.

And I could fully see them building a hotel, and it being successful, sometime in the future. I don't see it on the horizon right now. That's just my opinion. I hope Carowinds is able to sustain a great growth rate. And can build and expand their entertainment offerings. I would be glad to see them grow so much that they build a massive resort complex of hotels (or just 1 nice one)... I just don't see it now. And they may see it, and my vision is poor. I just expressed why I think it would be a poor decision, at very least for the near future.

[coasterbruh]

Who is the main draw for the great wolf lodge?

[RollerBee]

Who is the main draw for the great wolf lodge?

Most likely the mall and the speedway.

[coasterbruh]

And who mostly goes to the mall and the speedway . . .