[dirkdiggler1992]

I hear you all complaining about cut hours but how many of you all STAY till they closed on those days when hours were long?

My bigger complaint about closing earlier is that you get 1-2 less meals from the all day dining plan. Makes an awesome deal into just a really really great deal .

How would you get 1-2 less meals by closing early? All Season Dining is 2 meals max per day at four hours minimum between meals. If the park is closing an hour earlier than you’d like that day, go an hour earlier.

[RollerBee]

I hear you all complaining about cut hours but how many of you all STAY till they closed on those days when hours were long?

I did, literally open to close every visit. And most of the time it was great - virtually no lines anywhere, the kids would pick a ride and ride it for 20 minutes straight until the operator closed it down. Which is pretty much your whole point. When they closed at 8, it seemed far busier and congested when leaving, making it seem worthwhile to stay open longer - which is also the point, always leave 'em wanting more.

My bigger complaint about closing earlier is that you get 1-2 less meals from the all day dining plan. Makes an awesome deal into just a really really great deal .

Every visit I always stay Open to Close, went 6 times in 2018. Glitch99 points out exactly why I stay.

[Glitch99]

I hear you all complaining about cut hours but how many of you all STAY till they closed on those days when hours were long?

My bigger complaint about closing earlier is that you get 1-2 less meals from the all day dining plan. Makes an awesome deal into just a really really great deal .

How would you get 1-2 less meals by closing early? All Season Dining is 2 meals max per day at four hours minimum between meals. If the park is closing an hour earlier than you’d like that day, go an hour earlier.

I said the all day dining plan, not all season plan. The all day plan allows a meal every 90 minutes. So losing 2 hours means one less meal, possibly 2.

Besides that, how do you "go an hour earlier" when already there open to close?

[fonzlinney]

I hear you all complaining about cut hours but how many of you all STAY till they closed on those days when hours were long?

I did, literally open to close every visit. And most of the time it was great - virtually no lines anywhere, the kids would pick a ride and ride it for 20 minutes straight until the operator closed it down. Which is pretty much your whole point. When they closed at 8, it seemed far busier and congested when leaving, making it seem worthwhile to stay open longer - which is also the point, always leave 'em wanting more.

My bigger complaint about closing earlier is that you get 1-2 less meals from the all day dining plan. Makes an awesome deal into just a really really great deal .

I too have stayed on several times till the park closed and it was quite congested and I do like it when you leave the consumers wanting more. I wonder what’s going to happen with the show in the theater which has been great for the past three years which I attend at least a dozen times during the season,how will they work that out with a several weeks cut short.If they keep it like that I have before until the first weekend of September there is going to be a few weeks where it is just the weekends for the performers. My guess is the last performances for the show will be at the end of the first full week in August.It is a concern how this is going to unfold.

[uscbandfan]

If anyone eats a "MEAL" every 90 minutes then it will take a season, maybe two, before they're too big to ride anything.

I get where you're coming from and if I lived closer to Carowinds, I would probably have some of those same plans to go by the park and ride some rides and fill my stomach with out having to spend any more of my hard-earned cash.

BUT.... the many outweigh the few in the corporate world. How many employees does Carowinds have onsite on a shift? Multiply that times the wages per hour. Not to mention the utilities. Having a couple of hundred people in the park... ESPECIALLY people who are using plans and not spending money... isn't going to balance those books. If I were the corporation, I would do the same thing.

[Glitch99]

If anyone eats a "MEAL" every 90 minutes then it will take a season, maybe two, before they're too big to ride anything.

Just to be clear, with a bunch of younger kids who enjoy "grazing" throughout the day, a chicken finger here and a few fries there works out fantastic to keep them all full and happy with one plan. No, I'm not pounding 7 turkey legs every visit .

If we lived closer, we'd just get some all-season plans, but they aren't cost effective with a limited number of visits.

[Grobble]

^I think he was referring to me.

I am not concerned with what Cedar Fair tells their investors, I am not one of their investors.

Cedar Fair appears to be trying to diversify outside of their core business, amusement parks. This can be risky, they are building a hotel in an area where there is already a saturated market for hotel rooms(Carowinds).

It isn’t what a business says that is important, it is what their actions are. Generally speaking every business will give positive outlooks until the reality is so known that it is delusional for anyone to believe it even then some businesses on the failure point have done it.

You're not concerned with what CF tells the investors and the analysts that cover their stock b/c you would rather blather ignorantly on a topic and spout a bedwetters concern. Cedar Fair specifically mentioned on their conf call about managing hours of operation and staffing(labor costs) to improve margins and EBIDTA. There is no concern to people that know things. CF has analytics on the parks, concerning revenue at particular times of the day. Longer hours are only goof for CF if people are spending incremental dollars in that period. Cedar Point is reducing hours of their summer nights during weekdays to improve margins ,reduce labor costs and improve EBIDTA. FYI, Cedar Point EBIDTA is 130M+/yr while Carowinds is around 50M. This is an across the chain plan, "there is no concern, they are not in trouble." It's smart business which is something you clearly know nothing about.

[RollerBee]

^I think he was referring to me.

I am not concerned with what Cedar Fair tells their investors, I am not one of their investors.

Cedar Fair appears to be trying to diversify outside of their core business, amusement parks. This can be risky, they are building a hotel in an area where there is already a saturated market for hotel rooms(Carowinds).

It isn’t what a business says that is important, it is what their actions are. Generally speaking every business will give positive outlooks until the reality is so known that it is delusional for anyone to believe it even then some businesses on the failure point have done it.

You're not concerned with what CF tells the investors and the analysts that cover their stock b/c you would rather blather ignorantly on a topic and spout a bedwetters concern. Cedar Fair specifically mentioned on their conf call about managing hours of operation and staffing(labor costs) to improve margins and EBIDTA. There is no concern to people that know things. CF has analytics on the parks, concerning revenue at particular times of the day. Longer hours are only goof for CF if people are spending incremental dollars in that period. Cedar Point is reducing hours of their summer nights during weekdays to improve margins ,reduce labor costs and improve EBIDTA. FYI, Cedar Point EBIDTA is 130M+/yr while Carowinds is around 50M. This is an across the chain plan, "there is no concern, they are not in trouble." It's smart business which is something you clearly know nothing about.

Have they gotten the 3.1 million attendance that they were aiming for at Carowinds?

Last CF officially said they had just passed the 2 million mark again with Fury 325. Paramount Parks did that in 2005 and 2006....

If CF hits 3 million at Carowinds then they would be touting it, it isn’t going to happen.
Cedar Fair has a B1 rating from Moody’s....
With $500 million in note due in 2027.

That explains their actions.
Sources:
https://m.moodys.com/credit-ratings/Ced ... -809520386

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/b1-b.asp

[fonzlinney]

WOW! This has gotten quite testy and heated. One thing is certain we all are going to find out how this plays out.

[Chris]

Isn't it extremely illegal to mislead investors? So rollerbee, you are basically accusing Cedar Fair of committing fraud? Is that right?

[RollerBee]

Isn't it extremely illegal to mislead investors? So rollerbee, you are basically accusing Cedar Fair of committing fraud? Is that right?

That is not what I said.

Edit: I went and looked at a investor presentation. The debts are on there plain as day and so is there cash on hand as of 2017.

[Glitch99]

Isn't it extremely illegal to mislead investors? So rollerbee, you are basically accusing Cedar Fair of committing fraud? Is that right?

That is not what I said.

Edit: I went and looked at a investor presentation. The debts are on there plain as day and so is there cash on hand as of 2017.

Just because numbers are big doesnt mean they are bad. There is and never was any intention of paying off $500 million of debt in 2027; barring a complete collapse of the company or credit markets, that balance will be rolled over to new notes as little more than a formality. Cedar Fair gets far more return from reinvesting their capital than the financing costs. In fact, them paying off debts would be more of an indication that their growth is slowing/coming to an end.

[Grobble]

Have they gotten the 3.1 million attendance that they were aiming for at Carowinds?

Last CF officially said they had just passed the 2 million mark again with Fury 325. Paramount Parks did that in 2005 and 2006....

If CF hits 3 million at Carowinds then they would be touting it, it isn’t going to happen.
Cedar Fair has a B1 rating from Moody’s....
With $500 million in note due in 2027.

That explains their actions.
Sources:
https://m.moodys.com/credit-ratings/Ced ... -809520386

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/b1-b.asp

The more you post the more you show you know nothing about business.

Nothing you wrote, "Explains their actions."

1)Carowinds is getting investment b/c of it's growth in Revenue/EBIDTA, the 3M attendance was a long term goal. Cedar Fair is very very happy with the returns since phase 1 and now beginning of phase 2 investment in Carowinds.

2)CF has absolutely no concern about a 500M note due 8 years from now. CF has be increasing Revenue to record 8 years in a row. EBIDTA was a record 7 of the last 8 years, Only reason last FY wasn't a record was they moved some Capex into Q4 2017, from Q1 2018. That move also made the Capex 188M in the yr, which was up from 161M the previous FY. Net Income was a record 215M last year, even with increased Capex, which cut EBIDTA by 2M. CF was able to increase Net Income b/c of improved margins, despite slightly lower EBIDTA. FYI, notes are rolled over and rarely actually paid off. If CF was really concerned about debt they would be paying it down, which they could. Also, CF's debt ratio is better than Six Flags and SEAS.

The changes are explained by trying to increase margins. One of the ways to do that was explained earlier... managing labor costs, matching operational hours to demand, monitoring incremental revenue in time periods to cut hours or staffing, etc..

3)Your inflated belief in the importance of Carowinds is funny. Even if CF was actually going to pay the 500M note and not roll it over, the payment would not be dependent on Carowinds and the need to cut hours as you foolishly think. Over 50% of CF's EBIDTA comes from Cedar Point(#1 with 130M+), Knotts(#2 with 115M+). 75% of EBIDTA comes from the already mentioned plus Kings Island(#3) and Wonderland(#4). Carowinds is #5, but what they lag in is Revenue to EBIDTA ratio. Cedar Point, Knotts, Kings Island, Wonderland the big 4 producers currently all have higher % contribution of EBIDTA to the chain than % of Revenue of the chain. That's a product of better margins. CF talks about margins many times on conf calls and that's what they are looking to improve across the chain. They want Carowinds to improve their % Revenue to % EBIDTA like the big 4 and not be like the small parks in the chain which have poor ratios. That btw will spur even more investment in the park.

[RollerBee]

Talk about foolish assumptions, you make a couple foolish assumptions.

Have they gotten the 3.1 million attendance that they were aiming for at Carowinds?

Last CF officially said they had just passed the 2 million mark again with Fury 325. Paramount Parks did that in 2005 and 2006....

If CF hits 3 million at Carowinds then they would be touting it, it isn’t going to happen.
Cedar Fair has a B1 rating from Moody’s....
With $500 million in note due in 2027.

That explains their actions.
Sources:
https://m.moodys.com/credit-ratings/Ced ... -809520386

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/b1-b.asp

The more you post the more you show you know nothing about business.

Nothing you wrote, "Explains their actions."

1)Carowinds is getting investment b/c of it's growth in Revenue/EBIDTA, the 3M attendance was a long term goal. Cedar Fair is very very happy with the returns since phase 1 andnow beginning of phase 2 investment in Carowinds.

2)CF has absolutely no concern about a 500M note due 8 years from now. CF has be increasing Revenue to record 8 years in a row. EBIDTA was a record 7 of the last 8 years, Only reason last FY wasn't a record was the moved some Capex into Q4 2017, from Q1 2018. Thatmove also made the Capex 188M yr which was up from 161M the previous FY. Net Income was record 215M last year, even with increased Capex which cut EBIDTA by 2M. CF was able to increase Net Income b/c of margins despite slightly lower EBIDTA. FYI, notes are rolled over and rarely actually paid off. If CF was really concerned about debt they would be paying it down, which they could. Also, CF debt ratios are better than Six Flags and SEAS.

The changes are explained by trying to increase margins. One of the ways to do that was explained earlier... managing labor costs, operational hours to demand, etc..

3)Your inflated belied in the importance of Carowinds is funny. Even if CF was actually going to pay the 500M note and not roll it over, the payment would not be dependent on Carowinds and the need to cut hours as you foolishly think. Over 50% of CF's EBIDTA comes from Cedar Point(#1 with 130M+), Knotts(#2with 115M+). 75% of EBIDTA comes from the already mentioned plus Kings Island(#3) and Wonderland(#4). Carowinds is #5, but what they lag in is Revenue to EBIDTA ratio. Cedar Point, Knotts, Kings Island, Wonderland the big 4 producers currently all have higher % contribution of EBIDTA to the chain than % of Revenue of the chain. That's a product of better margins..ie...efficiency. CF talks about margins many times on conf calls and that's what they are looking to improve across the chain. They want Carowinds to improve their % Revenue to % EBIDTA like the big 4 and not be like the small parks in the chain which have poor ratios. That btw will spur even more investment in the park.

[Grobble]

Talk about foolish, a couple foolish assumptions.

Have they gotten the 3.1 million attendance that they were aiming for at Carowinds?

Last CF officially said they had just passed the 2 million mark again with Fury 325. Paramount Parks did that in 2005 and 2006....

If CF hits 3 million at Carowinds then they would be touting it, it isn’t going to happen.
Cedar Fair has a B1 rating from Moody’s....
With $500 million in note due in 2027.

That explains their actions.
Sources:
https://m.moodys.com/credit-ratings/Ced ... -809520386

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/b1-b.asp

The more you post the more you show you know nothing about business.

Nothing you wrote, "Explains their actions."

1)Carowinds is getting investment b/c of it's growth in Revenue/EBIDTA, the 3M attendance was a long term goal. Cedar Fair is very very happy with the returns since phase 1 andnow beginning of phase 2 investment in Carowinds.

2)CF has absolutely no concern about a 500M note due 8 years from now. CF has be increasing Revenue to record 8 years in a row. EBIDTA was a record 7 of the last 8 years, Only reason last FY wasn't a record was the moved some Capex into Q4 2017, from Q1 2018. Thatmove also made the Capex 188M yr which was up from 161M the previous FY. Net Income was record 215M last year, even with increased Capex which cut EBIDTA by 2M. CF was able to increase Net Income b/c of margins despite slightly lower EBIDTA. FYI, notes are rolled over and rarely actually paid off. If CF was really concerned about debt they would be paying it down, which they could. Also, CF debt ratios are better than Six Flags and SEAS.

The changes are explained by trying to increase margins. One of the ways to do that was explained earlier... managing labor costs, operational hours to demand, etc..

3)Your inflated belied in the importance of Carowinds is funny. Even if CF was actually going to pay the 500M note and not roll it over, the payment would not be dependent on Carowinds and the need to cut hours as you foolishly think. Over 50% of CF's EBIDTA comes from Cedar Point(#1 with 130M+), Knotts(#2with 115M+). 75% of EBIDTA comes from the already mentioned plus Kings Island(#3) and Wonderland(#4). Carowinds is #5, but what they lag in is Revenue to EBIDTA ratio. Cedar Point, Knotts, Kings Island, Wonderland the big 4 producers currently all have higher % contribution of EBIDTA to the chain than % of Revenue of the chain. That's a product of better margins..ie...efficiency. CF talks about margins many times on conf calls and that's what they are looking to improve across the chain. They want Carowinds to improve their % Revenue to % EBIDTA like the big 4 and not be like the small parks in the chain which have poor ratios. That btw will spur even more investment in the park.

Please stop while you have a shred of dignity. You have already put your ignorance on full display. You have shown you know nothing about business, financials, Cedar Fair and the amusement industry